Saturday, May 12, 2012

Did you know, that ... (Part 91)

.. you can play Disarm after inflicting damage with Outside of the Hourglass and then going to long range or playing Strike: Combat Ends (proving the damage inflicted is higher than that of your opponent)?
There are several rather peculiar things about this:
  1. The damage by Outside of the Hourglass is inflicted by the vampire using the card, which is a rare thing for card played before range is determined. Carrion Crows, Weather Control and the like all so-called environmental damage.

  2. The other remarkable fact is that Disarm can only be played when damage is inflicted. But since you maneuvered to long, how is it possible to play Disarm in the situation as described above. The reason is that the default range in combat in close, and Outside of the Hourglass is played before range is determined, therefore the damage was inflicted of close range. [This statement is not true (most likely never was). See also Ankha's comment below & the update of the "Did you know" post.]

  3. It doesn't matter (playing after Outside of the Hourglass) you played Strike: Combat Ends in the strike phase and don't inflict damage with that. Disarm does not require the vampire to inflict damage with a strike, only that the vampire inflicts damage (and not environmental damage).
The combination is strong, but far from unbeatable. The easiest defense against this, is to play damage prevention (requiring cards that are not limited to prevent damage from an opposing minion's strike).



Anonymous said...

I would add "damage prevention that prevent non-strike damage". Armor of vitality is very good for that.

Brandonsantacruz said...

One thing to note is that you still have to play disarm at the end of the round. This makes the combo less strong because it requires three cards (or effects) to effectively ensure that you do more damage than your opponent does. You can disarm with two cards, but that isn't all that hard. Preventing hit-back damage is important much of the time.

2 card combos (fragile, but one discipline):
Undead Strength + Disarm
Glancing Blow + Disarm

Outside the Hourglass + Disarm has the advantage you mentioned of occurring before range is determined and the source is not environmental. This makes the combo work well against the dreaded Carrion Crows + Aid from Bats. The difference here is that Disarm by itself is a dead card. You need some other card or ability it order to make it so badass.

Outside the Hourglass does have the advantage of being usable at least twice in a round of combat (inf + sup), where many other cards are not (normally you get one strike, one opportunity to maneuver, one chance to add environmental). You can actually use the card for damage, then as many times as you want to counter your opponent's maneuvers (after going to long if you wish to do so), then for a dodge. Disarm is the "icing on the cake" and you can play Outside the Hourglass a couple times in the hope of drawing into one.

It appears that the Trujah have a thing or two to show the Brujah about combat after all.

Juggernaut1981 said...

Yep, and I still find many of the rulings about Outside the Hourglass, when compared with Carrion Crows et al to be somewhat illogical.

It just feels like one of those areas of combat where I would like to throw out the rulings and start again from scratch. All of it is about redefining what is classed as "from the opposing minion" and what is "environmental damage". Realistically, I would like cards to explicitly state that they are environmental and anything 'not environmental' comes from the opposing minion (unless it is caused by some other minion/retainer). But IANLSJ and IANPB...

extrala said...

@Brandon: True, you need to deal with the hitback, but against any non-combat deck it's trivially easy.

@Juggernaut: I wouldn't mind if they changed the cardtext of OtH to environmental damage. Still playable then.

Ankha said...

You cannot play Disarm in that case if you've maneuvered to long range. Check your link:

"What if the opposing minion B is not sent to torpor and someone sets
the round to long afterward?
Can A play Pulled Fangs since A dealt more damage at close range
(before range was determined)?
Or are the damage from Outside the Hourglass considered to be dealt at
long range?"

LSJ's answer:

> Or are the damage from Outside the Hourglass considered to be dealt at
> long range?

The reason is that the range is by default close, but is set ("really known") during the set range step. So damage dealt before range is set is considered to be dealt at the "real" range once the range is set. In that case, since range has been resolved as "long", the damage of OtHG are considered to have been dealt at long range.